First of all, I want to extend my very best wishes to the brothers of the new Grand Orient of the United States of America. On June 27, the GO-USA received a patent from the Grand Orient of France, a document which grants them amity with certain other GO bodies, allowing them to visit Masonically and to work certain rites. The GO-USA will work closely with Le Droit Humain affiliates, the George Washington Union, and the Women's Grand Lodge of Belgium (all of which having their own affiliates in the US). I know that a lot of hard work and organization went into this, and I congratulate Bro. John Slifko, the new Grand Master of the new Grand Orient of the USA. Likewise, my best wishes to Bro. Brandt Smith, their new Grand Secretary, and to Bro. Jeff Peace, the new Grand Secretary of External Affairs. While the GOdF and LDH is not in amity with UGLE Grand Lodges, they and other GOs have worked in parallel toward Masonic ideals. It is my sincere hope that this new venture comes to every success for all of you.
Secondly, anyone reading this blog is probably aware that there have been skirmishes between certain Mainstream Freemasons and those who, for various reasons (justified or not), have taken issue with Mainstream lodges. The untimely death of Br. Theron Dunn precipitated a truce of sorts, and for several months the bickering stopped. Unfortunately, the creation of the GO-USA seems to have renewed the arguing, for reasons which I am unable to fathom. The sniping that was taking place in blogs and message boards is on the upswing, and I'm not just disappointed with the tone of the posts that I've been reading; I'm actually disheartened because with the creation of the GO, I believe that there are fewer reasons for such attacks than before.
To my brothers in the Mainstream lodges: You should know better than to snipe at the new GO. For the last several years several of you have been harping at certain members about their lack of legitimacy, adding insults to the effect that they must be meeting in coffee shops. The patent gives the GO-USA a type of legitimacy. True, the GO is not recognized by Mainstream (that is, UGLE) Masonry; but they are now an entity that is in amity with several other LDH lodges.
Look, my brothers - your allegiance to the Craft is admirable, but consider: Mainstream Freemasonry, i.e., UGLE and MWPH lodges make up something like 80% of the Masonic population in the UK and US. Why even waste your time on taking potshots at the minority? GO and LDH lodges have operated right alongside our own, in a parallel universe of Masonry. We've been grudgingly acknowledging their existence (when we're not completely ignoring them) for 300 years. Is it so difficult to ignore this new GO?
I think that one of those rules we learned in grammar school applies here: If you don't have anything nice to say about something, then don't say anything at all.
To my friends, brothers, and other supporters of the new GO-USA: For the last several years I've read diatribes and rantings about the terrible members of the Mainstream GLs. Some of you have written posts, articles and comments that have made sweeping generalizations about the Mainstream GLs, and several of you have written any number of times about your happiness to have finally left that noise behind.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Some of you have worked very hard for this honor - and it is an honor. The GOdF did not grant a patent to a coffee shop lodge, it granted a patent to a group of people who, they believe, are going to work toward the good of the order, and for the purposes of brotherly love, relief, and truth. This is your opportunity to shine, to make an example of the good that you can do, and perhaps even show the Mainstream not just a new way, but a better way. Don't disgrace the opportunity to work on your own temple by continuing to take potshots and indulge in name-calling.
A good start would be writing articles describing what you've done, as opposed to leaving comments tearing down what others have done.
I wish I could end this with some kind of pithy, meaningful sentence which would immediately make every one see the error of their ways, but I really don't have time to read unknown authors to steal their ideas gain inspiration. All I know is that I'm tired of seeing good people on both sides of this issue acting like the Hatfields and McCoys; I'm tired of reading comments and articles that are downright insulting, articles that are followed up by "Well, he started it" sniping that is more fitting for children in the back seat of a long car ride than for grown men who have professed to uphold certain Masonic ideals.
I think that it's time that people on both sides of this issue started leading by example instead of giving in to their passions. Can you do this?
Tao of Masonry | Freemasonry | Masonry
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85 Comments:
Well said brother. I know, I was guilty of some of this behavior when I joined the G.O. svereal months ago. But it was a lesson such as this that taught me how un-masonic I was being. I have set up my own blog a few months back, and my message has been purely one of tolerance. So KUDOS to you for standing up and putting brothers in check, if someone hadn't done it to me, I'd still be wasting all that negative energy over petty differences.
Thank you very much Tom.
We have always stressed that the Treaty of Amity is the far more important of the two documents. The patent is just permission to use the Ancient and Accepted and French Rites.
To achieve a formal agreement of Amity with the Grand Orient of France in such a short period of time is a quite remarkable achievement.
We do not do things their way, but there is room for all respectable Freemasons and we should all celebrate "more Masonry" and not do anyting to cause the further reduction of respectable Freemasonry, which the GO USA undoubtedly is.
Although we cannot meet in Lodge, my colleague Brandt Smith and I have become friends, and respect each other. I have no doubt that this brotherly friendship and respect will grow over the coming years.
This would not have happened if it were not for the formation of the GO USA and the rebirth of The Grand Lodge of All England at York, and I for one am very thankful for it.
Peter Clatworthy
Grand Lodge of All England in Amity with the Grand Lodge of France.
Bro. Tom,
I can't begin to express how much I agree with your comments. I think most brothers from both sides are sick and tired of the fighting and the mud-slinging.
The problem seems to center around new brothers entering the conflict because of the lies and misinformation provided by Ed King on Masonicinfo.com. He pours gasoline on the fire and then everyone rushes to the battlefield.
King is a mainstream Mason without morals. He is dragging the mainstream brothers and Grand Lodges into an ever more hostile conflict. His opponents are quit to dig up ever last bit of dirty laundry about mainstream Masonry and shove it back right at him on their blogs and web sites. It's an endless cycle created by one man. This is his Masonic war.
The best of my mainstream brothers should work to bring this to an end. Only you can stop it. All that we can do, as the minority, is respond to it.
So long as mainstream Masons allow this to continue there is sadly no end in sight. :-(
Bro. Howard, this is exactly what I mean. I'm tired of the "But he started it!" "Yeah, but that's because you..." sniping.
Those potshots by the maudlin "Old Webmaster" are unfair at time, there's no question. But frankly, I see fewer new GO members returning the fire, my brother. In fact, most of the vitriol being returned seems to come from the same half dozen people.
Please understand what I'm trying to say: To suggest that Ed King (or any other person) is causing GO brothers to become insulting is to reduce them all to mere children. For several years I've been hearing about the immaturity of the Mainstream GLs. This is your opportunity to show us what real Masonry can be - in spite of what some of your detractors say.
It's easy to subdue your passions when all is peaceful around you. The test of maturity is subduing them in the face of opposition.
Sorry Bro. Tom but that's a cop-out on your part. Several of us have been working hard to stop the fighting from the GO side. That's why you see less from the GO. Unfortunately, we see little improvement from the mainstream side.
You and your brothers need to take responsibility for the actions of the few among you who continue the attacks. If we can do it, so can you. If you won't do it then there is little reason for us to continue trying to stop the fighting from our side. We took a step forward, now it's your turn.
Bro. Howard, I'm sorry that you feel that way, but I still think that you are not getting my point.
First off, there are no "sides." My Hatfield and McCoy analogy was perhaps a poor choice. As you are well aware, the GLs do not get together and decide to pick on somebody. Nor, in fact, do a cadre of bloggers and internet junkies meet in some back room to decide which online denizens will be the brunt of the next maudlin bomb.
I see a dozen or so Mainstream Masons on blogs and web boards who, for whatever reasons, can't seem to help themselves. They remind me of religious fundamentalists who believe that there is One True Way® and that anything else is simply wrong. It makes me disgusted at times to see some of them post their screeds, it really does.
That said, I don't know how you expect me to take responsibility for their actions. They are entitled to their opinions, just as you are entitled to your own.
Likewise, I'm not sure how you can stop the fighting from your "side." You, personally, are not responsible for the actions of a handful of your members. However, this would be the opportune time for your members to come to the realization that Masonry isn't something that happens only in the lodge room.
The real test of our Masonry is not how we treat other Masons, it's how we treat those who aren't - however we may define that.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about.
http://masonicminute.com/blog/2008/08/25/vigilance/
The GO is nothing like the "Thompson Masonic Fraud". We have Patents from the GOdF, which is older than any of the US GL's. We have a legal right to practice these rituals.
It's this kind of hate and misunderstanding that must be overcome.
Tom,
Great Post! I really don't know why there is sniping at all. Perhaps there is a fear that when a man chooses between either group (if there is even a choice available), there is a deficit to another group. Maybe there is a distrust of the other organization. I believe that if mainstream Masons continue to do what they do: raising money for disease research, helping kids, doing good ritual, and helping out a needy brother, then we will have done what we are supposed to do.
Nick
Bro. Howard - that's an example of what I was talking about, too. There are thousands of brothers - and sisters - who are members of LDH, GO, PHO, and other offshoot lodges who go to work every day, pay their bills, care for their families, and practice the tenets of Masonry every day - and usually right under the noses of mainstream Masons who have no idea that such lodges even exist.
I see no reason for such outright hatred and loathing. "Crush this weed"? "Our Craft is in danger"? "Call them liars"?
Ridiculous. Non-MS brothers are no more trying to merge with us than we are with you. In a time when most people no longer join civic or social groups, shouldn't we be encouraging those few groups who continue to attract members, especially if those groups support the principles of truth, relief, and brotherly love?
Bro. Nick - Thanks for dropping by. Yes, this is a Zero-sum game; if I join this, then I can't join that. But chances are that the person who would join a non-MS lodge is doing so because he - or she - believes that it's the best fit for himself.
And I do think that MS bros have a distrust of other organizations because most of them don't know anything about those orders, other than they are taboo. And really, unless you live in or near a major city, then you're unlikely to run across any in person.
Bro. Tom,
Also, there are only 22 lodges under the GOUSA banner or in amity in the US. Even at 500 members, there would only be 11,000 members. Just some numbers for thought.
Nick
The Grand Orient, LDH, GWU etc. all have different ideologies and philosophies from the Anglo-American system. People that join the Traditional Cosmopolitan bodies do so because they agree with their position on various things.
Attacking these groups hurts Anglo-American Masonry far more than them. When they respond with newspaper articles about corruption, prostitution, etc. within the Anglo-American system and post it all over the Internet.
When someone reads that material or their wife reads it, what do you think happens? It's not some crazy anti-Mason spewing propaganda, it's the national media reporting on organizational crime.
Thus far this conflict has lasted for about three years. I bet the Anglo-American system has lost more potential members over this broadcasting of their dirty laundry than than the total number of TC Masons in the country.
While the Anglo-American is much larger it is also suffering the largest impact from the conflict.
Nick - again, that's part of what I'm trying to say. What's the point of sniping at a very small minority? Just ignore them if you don't like them, and tend to your own temple.
Geez, it's like dealing with schoolkids sometimes.
Bro. Tom
I agree with you totally. I just was interested in the actual numbers but I realize that it makes me look line a jerk and I apologize. You and your Grand Lodge are first in one of the major shifts in Masonic thinking with the recognition of PHA and I think that makes you better prepared to deal with different types of Masonry. I really have nothing bad to say about anyone. Unfortunately, I think you may have opened a can of worms, especially on sites like Masonic minute and Masonic Line. But what you have said, I hope will make brothers pause a second and think of their own yards. As you can tell from my site, I really would rather be a cheerleader than a heckler. Sometimes, however, my excitement gets too exuberant
Nick
Hi Tom,
I have tried several times to label this post 'cool', but every time I return here the reaction-counter is back to zero. So here it is:
COOL +1
Thanks.
/Thomas Munkholt
Bro. Howard - I'm sure that we both agree that the feuding is both pointless and detrimental, and that we would both like to see it end.
Bro. Nick - No need for apologies, it was actually a good observation on your part. Good on you for wanting to be a cheerleader, though - I love those short skirts. No, no, I meant that it's much easier to tear something down than to build it up. It would be nice to see everyone lauding their own lodges instead of lobbing bombs at each other.
Bro. Tom - I removed the Reactions widget because the same thing happens to me. I tested it several different ways, and it always resets to 0 when the page is reloaded.
Thanx for the kudos, bro ;-)
As I have said on more than one occasion, I have absolutely no problem with the existence of these other groups. What I have an issue with is their use of the name "Freemasonry." If they have a better product then they should at least give it another name. If I designed a better automobile than Ford, I would not stick the name "Ford" on the side of it.
The question that everyone should be asking is: Why would folks that are dissatisfied with Freemasonry want to go out and start another organization and call it "Freemasonry?" An honest answer to that question explains it all.
Bro. Bug, of course they use the name "Freemason." They are, after all, Freemasons. What gives you the idea that they are not? Their rituals and ours stem from the same source; in fact, some LDH lodges use workings that are very similar to Emulation ritual. While we don't use Emulation in the US, they use it in other parts of the UK, Canada, Australia, and other parts of Europe.
The GOdF, BTW, goes back almost as far as the 1717 GLE. It's not as if they are a bunch of upstarts - non-UGLE lodges have operated right alongside of ours for years.
The GO-USA folks aren't unhappy with Freemasonry (not most of them, anyway). They are unhappy with mainstream organization, not the ideals themselves. They believe that a different organization will fit their needs better.
Tom: We'll just have to disgree, I guess. They are not Freemasons. They are spurious folks that call themselves Freemasons. Look at the history of these groups. They all found something wrong with Freemasonry; whether it be the exclusion of women and atheists, the way the ritual is recited, the meals being served, the color of the paint in the dining halls, etc; and they wanted out (if they were ever in, that is). They go out and create something in their own image and call it Freemasonry. I agree, they have been doing this stuff for years. But an old clandestine organization is still a clandestine organization. Unlike wine and good whiskey, it doesn't taste better just because it is aged.
If they would just use another name, I would hush up.
Bro. Bug, I think that we are disagreeing because the issues are unclear. The boundaries are not well defined, like those fractal pictures which, when magnified, show crazed coastlines where we once thought was a solid line.
Also, I think that you need to clarify just what you are against. Is it just the GO-USA, or is it all non-mainstream orders? I can see why some people would be hesitant to accept the GO-USA because it was put together very quickly, and some of the people involved have had a history of being difficult to work with.
That said, what is it that makes a lodge "clandestine"? The only thing that I see is that my GL says so. And my GL says so mainly because the UGLE says so. But before there was a UGLE, who was clandestine or unrecognized?
Bro. Bug,
Even Grand Lodges call them "Clandestine Lodge of Masons" and "Clandestine Masons." That seems to me to be an understanding that they are "Masons". I flipped open my copy of Complete Idiot's Guide, and according to Bro. Morris, the term, "Masonic Lodge" is not trademarked. Our system is built on recognition. If GLs don't recognize another, then they are, in essence, "dead to me."
Nick
I have been dead to a few people in my time. Not many but a few. Usually I just let it go and let myself be dead to those folks. In this particular case I can't just go away and die. We are here. I don't know who Palmetto Bug is but we are not trying to take away from his Grand Lodge or his Masonry at all. Why on Earth would we want to do that. That would just be crazy.
I am far too busy in my personal and professional life to spend my Masonic time worried about other Masonic organizations. I am sure his Grand Lodge is great for him. The Grand Orient is good for me. Sorry that bothers some Brethren but it is what it is. I can't control other's reactions nor will I try.
We are here and we are not going anywhere. I do wonder though why the venom seems to be reserved for the Grand Orient of the United States? The Grand Orient of France has been operating in North America for years, as has LDH, GWU and a host of other Masonic organizations that would be deemed clandestine by the Anglo-American Grand Lodges. Why now? Is it just a coincidence?
We all have work to do. We have personal lives and families that need our attention. We have professional lives that need our attention. We have lodges that need our support. What are we doing worried about what other people do?
Brother Tom, though you and I have never met in person (a fact that I would like to remedy someday) I consider you a strong and dedicated Brother. I appreciate your dedication to your lodge and Grand Lodge and I also appreciate your graciousness in allowing us to work as we see fit. In the end we are all working towards the same end.
Frat.·.
Brandt
Brother Tom,
This 80% idea, when applied to other things, like food, if fast foods make up 80% of the burger business, its the other 20% that may make the rtaditional, home cooked type burger.
If I want a good quality burger, shou.d I ignore that 20% minority as well?
The Pareto principle (also known as the 80-20 rule, the law of the vital few and the principle of factor sparsity) states that, for many events, 80% of the effects come from 20% of the causes. Business management thinker Joseph M. Juran suggested the principle and named it after Italian economist Vilfredo Pareto, who observed that 80% of income in Italy went to 20% of the population. It is a common rule of thumb in business; e.g., "80% of your sales comes from 20% of your clients."
Now this 80% could be accounted for a slack guard at the west gate? Does that equate to import or acknowledgement/recognition?
I do not see how an "ignore the 20%er's" take on this historical event and movement into the future falls under Logic and Reason.
Logic is the study of the principles of valid inference and demonstration. The word derives from Greek λογική (logike), fem. of λογικός (logikos), "possessed of reason, intellectual, dialectical, argumentative", from λόγος logos, "word, thought, idea, argument, account, reason, or principle".
Logic would Reason that Orient style masonry is Traditional Regular Freemasonry un recognized by UGLE and Grand Lodges that adhere to their modes of recognition of Grand bodies. Not clandestine or irregular.
Logic and Reason would also lead one to understand that their style of governance and mode of practice is similar and more in line with the original constitutions of the Grand Lodge of 1717, whence they derived their existence.
It comes down to one thing: God.
In 1813 UGLE laid down a gaunlet that a belief in a god and the immortality of the soul was immeninent in becomming a mason.
where as Orient masonry feels a mans belief is his own thing and has no place within a masonic Lodge.
Orient Masonry chose not to bend knee to an addition made to masonry by england, and instead remain Free.
America, 40 years after the revolutionary war, decided to bow to england again.
The history of France and their struggle for Freedom and Liberty was an extreme one between church/crown and the people. The masonic lodges swore Liberty, equality and Fraternity as its tenets and has stuck to them.
Could you imagine a Grand Orient body telling one of its Lodges to take down the writings of Voltaire, Paine, Jefferson, Spinoza and the like from their website?
Its all about GOD.
and Tolerance.......
Well said, unfortunately so much energy is being wasted on discussions like these. The majority of true masons in the United States understand temperance and tolerance. It is only the radical few who keep rattling their sabers.
Bro. Brandt - kudos to you for your hard work and organizational skills. Mainstream Masonry is doing very well here in the Nutmeg State, and I'm proud of all of the officers at Friendship Lodge. I don't know anybody personally that feels threatened by your new organization.
BTW, it's my take that the reason you're hearing so much about it now is because a few people have made a lot of noise. I'm hopeful that as the GOUSA settles in and gets more focused, that a few of the members that left the Mainstream GLs will find their centers and become more content.
Next time you're in southern New England, stop by for a nice single malt.
Bro. Nick - this part of recognition always fascinated me. There is an inherent tautology at work: How do I know you're a Mason? Because my GL tells me that you are. How does my GL know? Because they say so.
Here in Conn we are very aware of how that works. 20 years ago, thousands of Masons went to bed on Friday night, not being able to communicate with the PH lodges in their towns. On Monday morning, they - mirable dictu - suddenly brothers.
Similarly, about five years ago, we were brothers with our friends in Minnesota. They recognized the GOdF, and the next day (well, soon after), they were de-recognized. After a few months, GLMN rescinded it's amity with GOdF, and suddenly they were back in favor with the rest of the US states.
It's not mystical. It has nothing to do with the workings; rather, it's a political definition, much like the lines on a map. Doesn't make it wrong, that's just how it is. I just try not to read more into it than is warranted.
Bro. 2BC -
Would you do me a favor? Please try to understand that your experience of Masonry is not the same as mine - apparently it's not even close. Maybe we're just very different up in New England. Maybe it's the water. Maybe it's because we have a very progressive and forward thinking GL. My point is that to me, it's insulting for you to say that my Masonry is like a poor quality burger.
Frankly, bro, I think that this is the kind of statement that sets some Mainstream Masons off. Some of us manage to do very well for ourselves, Masonically speaking. We learn to smooth our ashlars, we learn how the temple is constructed, and we keep learning every single day, in between - and sometimes amidst - the fish fries and the Child ID programs and the pancake breakfasts.
I'm happy that you have found a branch of Masonry that you believe to be a good fit for yourself. Please focus on that, and stop disparaging those of us who are doing well in the system that you left.
The owners of mcdonalds and burger king have made a killing
small mom and pop business are closing every day...
its not that yours is worse or mine is better..
it is YOU using this 80% smack for an excuse to ignore a minority, not about bad or good experiences, because millions still sit in lines at the drive throughs for a whopper, so all i am pointing out is the logic behind YOUR statements of the 80-20 rule you have seemed to pick up and used in more than one blog.
so, not about different experiences, just commenting on your logic of the 80% smack for how to "deal" wit gousa masons.
i'm glad you dig the big mac!
millions of others do too...
me I enjoy a hand made pattied tradition burger........
tomayto
toemahto
2BowlCain,
Why is MS Masonry like McDonalds? It appears to me that MS Masonry, if it were a restaurant, would be similar to Houlihan's. The restaurant is very dark and mysterious, the food/ritual is similar at most locations but variety does exist, and the price of going to Houlihan's is at the higher end of what is considered acceptable for casual dining. If you would rather go to Buca di Beppo (the reason I chose this is because it has fewer locations), that is fine. Both taste fine and have good and bad qualities. It is based off of what makes you feel comfortable and fills you up.
Nick
2BC - I can't believe this. You think I'm laying down the smack? Me?
Okay, let's look at this more closely. While I was talking about the general GO/LDH population in general, let's look at the other numbers.
Bro. Nick says that there are 22 GOUSA lodges. Using my powers of WAG (wild-assed guessing), let's say that each lodge has 200 members (that's what my lodge has). That's 4,400 total GOUSA members. Against the approximately 2 million mainstream bros in the US, that puts you significantly less than 20%. In fact, it puts you at 0.2%, doesn't it?
Now, if you're going to come back and say something about the quality of your membership, and how 80% of the mainstream guys don't show up anyway (as you've mentioned before), that still leaves you at 1.1%. The plain fact is that the GOUSA makes up a very, very small percentage of US Masonry. No smack, just numbers. But big, fat, hairy deal, those are mere numbers, and you are missing the real point:
A very, very small number of GOUSA members are being very small minded and continuing to harp on a system that they left behind, instead of focusing on the work before them. Meanwhile, a very, very small number of fundamentalist Mainstream brothers continue to take unprovoked potshots at the GOUSA, for no discernible reason. If it's because the Mainstreamers are afraid that the GOUSA is going to overrun MS lodges, I'm hoping that by looking at the numbers, it will set their minds at ease. It's got nothing to do with insulting you or the GO.
I think that the officers of the GOUSA know where I stand on this, and any of them would tell you that you are simply wrong in your assumptions. I am just a brother who is sick and tired of the bickering. For the last several years, web forums have been turned into flame pits, and conversations have taken angry turns. Some people have been banned from web boards for not subduing their passions, or for carping at someone else's idea of Masonry.
It's got to stop.
I happen to like "Internet Masonry;" I've learned more through talking with brothers (and sisters) from various jurisdictions all over the world than I ever would in a lodge. It's taught me to be open-minded and tolerant, and I'm thankful for all of the people that I've pestered for information over the years.
Unfortunately, the last year or so I've seen less of that, and many people who, like me, enjoyed interacting on the web have grown discouraged and wandered off elsewhere. Much of it is due to the bickering and sniping between a very small number of Masons from both "sides" of the issue. I am asking you - and everyone concerned - to step away from this feud and go back to your lodges, to your families, to your jobs, and to practice Masonry. Build temples. Smooth your ashlars. Help the poor and distressed. Polish your ritual, clean the junk out of the basement, and stock up on pancake mix.
Just go do something constructive instead of destructive - isn't that what Masonry is about?
My question is, "what happened to all the Anti-Masons"? I have looked around and only John Ratcliff has talked to any Anti-Masons through his blog. There is even the story of a man attempting an insanity defense based on Masons taking over the world. We spill all this "ink" on each other when I think we can all agree on them.
Nick
Tom,
Thank you for you tolerance, your understanding and most of all your common sense. I appreciate your position regarding the differences between MS masonry and GO masonry. If more people like yourself were in leadership positions then perhaps the two streams would be able to find common ground and be able to work together on certain issues. GO masonry will most likely never have the numbers that MS masonry has in the United States and really isn't concerned about that. It is approaching masonry from a very different perspective. Still, there is no reason that different masonic jurisdictions cannot co-exist and, hopefully interact at some level. Thank you again for your observations. It is a pleasure to read your blog.
Peter
Brother Tom,
I want to say thank you, really from the bottom of my heart. This blog has my vote so far for Masonic blog of the year.
I am a "clandestine" Mason who is not a GOUSA member (or any of the other groups you mentioned.) But more importantly then that I am a lover of Freemasonry, a Craftsman and a supporter of all Masons. Each and every one of them around the world. Even those who hate me, I have chosen their right to do so. Not saying that I endorse their opinions but it would be wrong for me to deny them those opinions. Who am I to to impose te power to deny them their constitutional rights ? In America you can believe however, whoever and whatever you like. I say good for them.
I have been very fortunate to learn a great deal. There are some wonderful people who I am in day to day association with who are instrumental in helping me construct my temple. We are brethren and we remind each other through our kindness, encouragment and hard work. I really hope that everone is as fortunate as I.
I am a living stone, and that is something I am very proud of.
At the end of this post I wish all of you the very best. I count you all as Brethren and I would be there to aid and assist any of you at anytime. If you do not count me as a Brother I respect your viewpoint and I support your right to share that with those of like mind. Build your temple and be well.
S&F,
BC
no problem Bro Tom.....
I did not know commenting on the minority remarks, as if in America minorities have no say?
So if I misinterpreted your advice for the 80%ers to ignore the minority masonic group because minorities are apparently valueleless, I apologize....
My reasoning must be off when interpreting the manner in which you explained belonging to a group here where the numbers is what makes it of value, and ignore this minority group that is so small why even bother with them...
I do not wish to be antagonistic with you, I was suprised at the left handed comments about membership numbers and that equated to something meaningful, where because we do not have the numbers, just ignore them, because how can a small minority have any value?
Sorry for the misinterpretation.
Oh by the way, I have been busy building up our community, rehabbing a building and educating myself daily in a new and free masonic world of ritual and expirametation.
Sorry again for the wrong interpretation of your reasoning on dealing with the orient express.
The problem was Bro Tom, was when we as a Lodge were doing constructive stuff for our Lodge, Temple and community, our leaders were the wrecking ball of destruction. We are trying to shake the ill effects these men had, and are trying to redirect towards the postitive things we started but were sidetracked by our need of survival from attacks. Once the attacking is over, we should be able to make even more strides in the positive direction.
Again. I apologize bro tom.
"The question that everyone should be asking is: Why would folks that are dissatisfied with Freemasonry want to go out and start another organization and call it "Freemasonry?" An honest answer to that question explains it all." = Palmettobug
That's an excellent question. The answer is quite simple. We believe in the ideals of Freemasonry but disagree with their implementation in certain mainstream Grand Lodges. We are disgusted with the racism practiced by certain American mainstream GL's (GA, AL, WV, etc.) and find it morally wrong to support them any longer.
The present system wouldn't allow us to move our membership to a state where Masonic values were truly practiced. After twenty years of suffering through the bigotry we took a stand against it.
In the GOUSA all men of all races are treated equally. We also recognize the legitimacy of women Masons. It is, after all, the 21st century.
New GOUSA web site.
http://www.grandorientusa.org
Brother Tom,
I'm a fan of your blog anyway, but this post -- and your sane, level-headed, compassionate responses in the talkback has really raised the bar for Internet Masonry. Well done, kudos, and keep fighting the good fight.
Brother Randy Williams
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Well said Tom- Stop trying to defend what you said this is your blog hence your opinions.
Cory
What's in a name?
That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Shakespeare - Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)
Freemasonry, a name which conjures up certain images, like the scent of a rose, among its members and various other images among those without its walls. While it is true that those images would remain the same even if the name were different, this does not mean that calling something completely different Freemasonry will have the same effect. For example, try calling Limburger cheese a rose in hopes of getting the same pleasant aroma of that delicate bud. The result would be a pungent smelling rose that bears no resemblance to what others know as a rose in scent or appearance. Now so long as you keep this title to yourself, no harm would befall the real roses of the world. They would continue to fill the air with their pleasant aroma and none would be the wiser to your deranged obsession with mislabeling your cheese.
Now suppose that you had access to a powerful medium of propaganda. Hhhmmm, something like the internet would do nicely. Suppose that with the internet you were able to convince a large segment of society that the cheese you have is actually a rose. To do this all you would need to do is create numerous websites about roses, but replace the actual rose with cheese. Eventual the Rose Growers Association of America and other such bodies will catch wind of the false aroma and will undoubtedly step in to defend the true rose. Afterall, who wants to receive limburger cheese for Valentines day? Age old sayings would take on opposite meanings, "He came out smelling like a rose" for example. Poor Juliette would have received the gravest of insults, rather than a most romantic sentiment.
There has been such a battle of names going on the internet for over two years now. It has been over clandestine bodies and their use of Freemasonry as a name for their new and improved organisations. Some Masons, such as myself, have spent countless hours defending the name of our craft against these individuals. These are not men who through ignorance, may ridicule it. They are men who through knowledge of it, seek to supplant it. Some have been around for hundreds of years, while others are brand new to the art of innovation. What makes them worthy of debunking in this day is their use of this powerful tool the internet. The internet is the first place a vast majority of people turn to when researching a topic of interest. From buying a home or car, to where to go on vacation, the internet is the Great Oracle of the modern age. It is only natural that a man who is interested in becoming a Freemason would turn to the Great Oracle for advice. A quick search in the top search engines, Google, Yahoo, Ask.com, will reveal how dismal the representation of genuine Freemasonry is. Our Grand Lodges are behind the power curve and the clandestine bodies have taken the field. It is incumbent on us, as Masons, to be defenders of Truth. More so in regards to our ancient and noble fraternity.
Here of late some regular Masons have come out requesting a cease to such actions. In their minds, anyone has a right to call themselves whatever they want to. They are tired of the battles, battles which are nothing more than clarifying myth. They want the internet to be a happy place where we can all congregate in peace and love. Why not, no harm can come of it, right? "Afterall, I have friends in these clandestine bodies." Friends who would gladly steer a potential candidate into their false rendition of the craft. Friends who gladly see Freemasonry as we have it today, replaced with a Freemasonry that is nothing more than another political action committee. I too have friends in this world who are not Freemasons. If they should ever attempt to supplant Freemasonry as I know and love it, they will be friends no more.
There are several straw man arguments that always rear their ugly heads in this whole issue:
"It is every persons right to gather and associate with who ever they want."
True, but this isn't the argument. Every person can assemble however they wish. What they cannot do is claim their assembly is something that it is not and expect no one to call them out on it.
"They have been around for 300+ years"
Some have, but at some point in that journey they decided to innovate, and therefore lost all rights to retention of the name.
"You cannot stop someone from calling themselves a Freemason."
Of course I can't. However, I can inform the general public that they are not and why they are not, then if the general public still wishes to associate them with Freemasonry, it is on them.
I do not care if any Mason feels compelled to engage these fools. I just know that I always will unless it becomes prohibited by my Grand Lodge. As long as the possibility is there that our rose will be associated with Limburger Cheese, I doubt that will ever come to pass.
Br. Arthur Peterson
Isn't curious that all of the "Masonic purists" that condemn the Grand Orient are from states that don't recognize Prince Hall?
Isn't it also curious that Ed King, at one claimed, that we were secret members of Prince Hall to cause trouble in Georgia?
One has to wonder if these people fear the Grand Orient, or if what they really fear in the recognition of African American Masons in the all white social club?
Brother Howard,
I don't think that is it at all. Personally I think that Arthur has a point that we should address directly. He is concerned, and it is a valid concern, that some might mistake the Grand Orient of the United States for his Grand Lodge. He does not want that to happen. Frankly, neither do I. This is maybe the one point that we can all agree upon.
I would be open to hearing all considerations that will make absolutely sure that nobody mistakes the Grand Orient for any other Masonic organization.
Brandt
"Isn't curious that all of the "Masonic purists" that condemn the Grand Orient are from states that don't recognize Prince Hall?"
Really!! I didn't know Br. Ed King was a southerner. I challenge you to back this statement up with some kind of evidence. Show us that not a single "Northerner" is adamently against you knuckle heads.
"One has to wonder if these people fear the Grand Orient, or if what they really fear in the recognition of African American Masons in the all white social club?"
Ah yes, when faced with logic and incontravertable evidence, throw out the race card. How dreadfully boring of you. I thought you were smarter than that. Oh well.
PH will be recognised every where soon enough. When that happens, what platform will you clowns have to stand on then?
"I would be open to hearing all considerations that will make absolutely sure that nobody mistakes the Grand Orient for any other Masonic organization."
Brandt,
It has been a while. I hope all is well with you and yours.
To the subject at hand, seeing as your new organisation has very little Masonic about it in the traditional sense, why even burden it with association to Freemasonry?
The Oddfellows was a wonderful association that was very similar to Freemasonry. Yet they did not need to call themselves "Masonic" to succeed. There are many organisation like this, all created and flourishing under their own merits. By insisting on carrying the title Freemason, all you are doing is giving the impression that your organisation needs to ride on the coat tails of an already established tradition.
Bro. Arthur - First off, I want you to understand that I am not suggesting that you - or anyone else - should recognize the GOUSA. I'm not even suggesting that you call them "brothers." I am well aware that people interpret their Obs and GL rules differently, and there is no way that I'm espousing the idea that one should go against their GL or their conscience.
As it happens, my own GL tells me that I'm not to "communicate Masonically" with clandestines. That said, neither does it tell me that I should persecute them, nor hound them on the internet, nor encourage other GLs to do anything about them. I'm reasonably sure that most other GLs do not encourage their members to persecute them, either.
There is some irony in that your own GL (North Carolina) is on the verge of recognizing a group that some other jurisdictions consider to be clandestine. I'm not going to ask if you were this vehement against that particular group; I mention this only in passing for some perspective.
I will, however, ask whether your ire is directed toward the GOUSA, or all of the GO, LDH, etc., obediences? The thing is, since the GOs have been around for 300 years, why is it only now that it seems to be important to "do something" about them? After all, we've all been working side-by-side for longer than most Mainstream Masons have been aware of them.
Bro. Howard -
Please stop.
This is exactly the kind of schoolyard "So's yer Mama" talk that poisons the well. Baseless accusations about Ed King, or anybody else who opposes your endeavors are a) out of place, and b) make you and the rest of the GOUSA members look like the "malcontents" that some people claim you are. You need to understand this before any change will happen.
It's also completely unfair - not to mention ludicrous - to pose the question that MS Masons are afraid of either the GO or the inclusion of African Americans.
Frankly, I'm with Bro. Peterson with regard to this comment. What could you possibly hope to have gained with this?
Br. Tom,
First, I understand where you are coming from in your initial post. I know you would not ask me to do anything contrary to my GL rules. It is just a differance of opinion between in us in how we should relate to clandestine Masons on the internet. The world is big enough for both of our opinions.
As to which groups I am against, well that would be all groups not generally recognised by Freemasonry. GOUSA, LDH, GOdeF, etc. all pose an equal challenge to the craft. It is true that traditionally they have simply been ignored by Freemasonry, but the modern world presents new challenges that must be addressed.
As I have stated, the internet is a growing phenomenon. It is the place people go for information. Encyclopedias are a thing of ancient times. Unfortunately, the internet has no care for the accuracy of the information it shares with the world. This makes it a very powerful propaganda machine. It is being used for such by the clandestine organisations. This is nothing against them. It was a strategic step for them to take front line precedence on search engines. Our Grand Lodges missed the boat on this.
There are many clandestine organisations that while I do not agree with them, I cannot challenge them. Why? Because they do not advertise, they are not on the net claiming to be the real deal, they are functioning quietly in the shadows.
For the ones making noise and promoting themselves on the internet they are in my view,a threat to Freemasonry. Until the Grand Lodges get up to speed, I feel a duty to inform the public,when the situation demands, that they are being mislead.
Bros. Brandt & Arthur -
Once again, I want to point out that some Masons interpret their Obs & GL rules differently. The idea that many of the GOUSA members were once MS Masons will rankle. I'm not going to try to change their minds; their beliefs on this issue are theirs, and they are entitled to them - as you are entitled to your own.
Bro. Art, I think I understand what you're saying: if a member of an organization splits off because of a disagreement, that's fine; the problem is that they continue to call themselves after the original group. You're wondering why they call themselves "Masons" when they've chosen to (from your perspective) violate or change some of the basic tenets of the organization.
Back in college, my Logic prof posed the following question:
Odysseus sailed his ship into the port in Ithaca, and vowed never to sail again. Over the years, his men did maintenance and repair. One day, some decking board was found to be rotting, and was replaced. Another day, the masts needed to be taken down and remade. Over the years, every single piece of wood was replaced.
At what point was it no longer Odysseus' original ship?
Ritual workings mutate over time and over distance. Hell, I live in a small state and I've never seen 2 lodges do ritual exactly the same way - not even mine when I was WM ;-) Customs change. Some ideas take root, while others wither and die.
I suspect - and Bro. Brandt can correct me, that the GOUSA, like the GOdF years ago, decided that these certain things were the essence of Masonry, while those (whatever they were) were not.
I'm pretty sure that no lodge considers itself to be clandestine :-)
Bro. Arthur -
Heh - our comments crossed in the mail :-)
Can you elaborate on what kinds of challenges that MS GLs face, with regard to the unrecognized lodges? IOW, what kind of threat do you believe that they pose to our own fraternity?
Brother Tom,
You are correct. There are certain aspects that are quite important to Masonry. You explained it very well.
Arthur, it has been a while (I have had my hands full with a number of issues that I won't mull over here - maybe some other time). Me and mine are doing quite though thank you, I trust that you and your's are doing well also?
We call ourselves Masons because we are that. I know that your Grand Lodge does not recognize that. That is okay by me, I would never ask them to do so. We do have a web presence as does Le Droit Humane and the American Federation of Human Rights, as does the George Washington Union, as do many Prince Hall Grand Lodges, and foreign jurisdictions that operate in the United States and Canada.
Believe me when I say this, I don't want the Grand Orient to be confused with your Grand Lodge. I don't want it as much as you don't want it. We would not ride on the coat tails of the various Grand Lodges in the United States. Truthfully we sent the last person that enquired into membership in Euclid to the Grand Lodge of Michigan. I gave him the contact information of who to talk to and all. I even called ahead to let the interested parties know that this person is a good sort that is interested. Short story, he came back our way and will be initiated next month.
We made sure that he know the differences and made an informed decision.
Now we are back to the original issue. You don't see us as Masons. Okay. We do see ourselves as such. What we do agree upon is that we don't want our respective Masonic organizations mistaken for the other. I would like to remedy that. A man of your obvious caliber could be quite helpful in that regard. So what do you say? We won't claim that we are not Masons because we are. We would like to make it abundantly clear that we are not your Grand Lodge or any of the other Grand Lodges of the UGLE lineage in the United States. How can I phrase that publically without being offensive to you and your Brothers? (wow that was the long way to ask that question - sorry about that).
Brandt
Brandt,
We are doing well also. Another long weekend over and its back to work. I am one of those crazy people who despise long weekends.
"How can I phrase that publically without being offensive to you and your Brothers? (wow that was the long way to ask that question - sorry about that)."
Here is the delema, it cannot be done. You see, my Grand Lodge has total jurisdiction over Freemasonry in my state. Therefore, any body claiming to be Freemasonry within my state MUST fall under them. If it does not, it is clandestine, period. If an organisation is outside our jurisdiction, it must request to be recognised, and request be granted, or it too is clandestine.
You chose to break away from your Grand Lodge and form your own lodge knowing these consequences. You knew that your lodge would be considered clandestine. You knew that the GOdeF is considered clandestine and why it is concidered so. You knew that these very actions would be considered offensive to the vast majority of Freemasons.
Therefore, how can you expect to be able to make any statement concerning your organisation that would not be offensive to Freemasons?
It simply isn't possible.
Br. Tom,
Here is the threat as I perceive it.
Suppose tha no one posted anything on the internet exposing these groups as frauds. There was no Br. Ed king and masonicinfo.com, there was no palmettobug and "The Masonic Line" blog, there was no rants by me or any other well intentioned Brother. If all this never was, what would you have?
The answer is you would have a very skewed picture of Freemasonry on the internet. Young men who came on the internet looking for the ways to become a Mason would only find groups like GOofUS, co-masonry, LDH, etc. If they did come in contact with a real Freemason, it would be one who saw nothing wrong with these groups. That being the case, why would anyone want to join Freemasonry. The only people saying they enjoy the values of their organisation are the imposters and even the real Freemasons are endorsing them.
Have you ever met a man who almost was duped by one of these organisations?
I have met several. I quietly let them know what they were getting into and they were thankful for it. Others have thanked me for letting them know in a more public manner. If no one speaks for Freemasonry, Freemasonry will slowly fade into the sunset.
Br. Tom,
I almost missed this in our posts crossing. I liked it and thought I'd back track to answer it.
"At what point was it no longer Odysseus' original ship?"
It ceased to be the original ship after the first repair. However, it still remained Odysseus' ship till the end.
Now, if one of Odysseus' crew members decided to go off and build his own ship. Even if he made it identical down to the final nail, it still would not be Odysseus' ship.
Odysseus, as captain of the ship, represents the set of ideals that make it what it is.
"Freemasonry, a name which conjures up certain images, like the scent of a rose, among its members and various other images among those without its walls". Just an observation. What images do you think "Freemasonry" conjures up in the minds of the people of France, Belgium, Italy and any number of other European countries? Grand Orient Freemasonry, which has been the dominant form of Freemasonry on the continent of Europe for centuries.
Peter
Arthur,
If there is nothing that we can say that would not be offensive we do indeed have a problem. Are you suggesting that absolute silence is the only thing that we can do?
Brandt
I just find it funny that in America, how the far from the mind set of our revolutionary fore fathers we have distanced ourselves.
The idea of American Revolutionary War Veterans would subject themselves to the idea of restrictions on masonic discourse in a Free country.
that mindset comes from Britian and there attempts at divide and conquer.
My jusrisdiction, my rules, my game or go home... the totally opposite of the spirit of America and Freemasonry!
Let Freedom ring....
Peter,
I do not know what images are conjured up in those countries. However, this isn't a Grand Lodge versus Grand Orient affair. Some Grand Orients are quite regular and recognised, like the Grand Orient of Italy.
Brandt,
The only thing that could be said is that your organisation has dropped the "Masonic" references to itself. Besides donning the symbols and allegory, it bears no resemblance to the fraternity you abandoned. Symbols and allegory does not make an organisation "Masonic".
It ceased to be the original ship after the first repair. However, it still remained Odysseus' ship till the end.
I wish you were sitting next to me in that class, I might have gotten a better grade :-)
It also gives me a much better idea of how you perceive Freemasonry and the issues about recognition, etc. As you said, we have a difference of opinion as to how we relate to them.
I appreciate your taking the time to try to explain the threat that you perceive. Now, please keep in mind that I'm not talking about those off-shoot groups that offer mail-order degrees for the low, low sum of only $1,299. I think that any such group that tries to make a profit by fleecing members - or potential members - by promising them wisdom of the ancients, or making them buy expensive regalia, is reprehensible.
But what exactly is the threat of the large, established, unrecognized orders? Thousands of men and women have belonged to LDH lodges around the US, but I don't remember ever reading about anything which would make them a threat to MS Masons.
I once had a conversation with somebody who told me that he kept an acquaintance from being "duped" into joining an unrecognized order up here; but he never could explain what the danger actually was; merely that it was "clandestine." This strikes me as amusing; I know a brother - AF&AM - who married a woman who was a member of an LDH order. I'm reasonably certain that she never participated in human sacrifices ;-)
And while I'm on the subject, Bro. Arthur, could you explain how your views on this square up with the fact that your jurisdiction is about to recognize a clandestine (a.k.a. Prince Hall) Grand Lodge? Isn't it - as you've discussed with Bro. Brandt - violating the Territorial Jurisdiction landmark?
I'm not asking to be difficult, it's just that on some level, every concern that you have about the GO could be applied to the PH lodges. Sine I came in long after Conn recognized PH, I'm not sure how one's GL explains the details to the members.
Br. Tom,
You are asking questions that require quite a bit to fully explain. As I am not trying to write a novel here, I will do my best to be succint and to the point.
But what exactly is the threat of the large, established, unrecognized orders?
They skew the public image of what Freemasonry is. The prfane know nothing about recognition and regularity. all they know is Freemasons and their symbols. So, if they see Freemasons publicly advocating the inclusion of women, using the craft for political agendas, admitting athiests, denouncing politicians, etc. they assume ALL Freemasons are that way. The truth is real Freemasonry condones none of this.
"And while I'm on the subject, Bro. Arthur, could you explain how your views on this square up with the fact that your jurisdiction is about to recognize a clandestine (a.k.a. Prince Hall) Grand Lodge?"
No violatinon of this doctrine is occuring. As the doctrine is understood in Masonic Jurisprudence, two GL's can operate in the same territorial jurisdiction IF they do so amicably. We are soon to follow in the foot steps of other states and establish amicable relations with PH in our state which would allow recognition of their organisation.
This does not mean that every clandestine lodge operating within our jurisdiction is being given blanket recognition.
"I'm not asking to be difficult, it's just that on some level, every concern that you have about the GO could be applied to the PH lodges."
Prince Hall is a scenario completely different than these other organisations. Prince Hall was I,P,R in a regular lodge. Prince Hall masons wanted to join local lodges as they were regular Masons. They were denied based on an unmasonic policy of racism. Therefore, they had to start their own group. There were no options available for them to meet as Masons.
Do keep in mind that these other organisations are not recognised by PH any more than they are by AF&AM Grand Lodges.
I find it very difficult to believe that anyone is being "duped" into joining anything. Now I have a fair amount of experience with "clandestine" organizations. In each and every case a distinction between them and the mainstream was made totally clear. In my own organization the M.E.A.P.R.M.M. we state upon first communication that we are NOT speculative Freemasonry but operative. LDH and AFHR state right up front that they admit women and that one who joins would not be accepted by the mainstream. Hell, your first ontact would probably be with a woman.
On another note the mainstream are loosing 20% overall membership every decade. One would think that they have their own issues to get under control that have nothing to do with any other order.
S&F,
BC
No matter how you slice it organizational sexism is just as wrong and repugnant as racism. There is zero rational or lodgical reason women are discriminated against by the mainstream. The arguments presented are nothing more then "straw man" rationalizations that do not hold up to logical scrutiny.
S&F,
BC
Prince Hall has worked with the Grand Orient of France on many occasions. The UGLE meets with the Grand Orient on a regular basis.
In France the "regular Grand Lodge" (GLNF) is in the minority as both the Grand Orient and the Grand Lodge of France dwarf them. As odd as it may appear to American Masons neither the Grand Orient or the Grand Lodge condemn the GLNF. Even though "recognition" does not exist between these Grand bodies, everyone exists together in Peace & Harmony like Masons should.
Perhaps the French are better Masons than we are?
"No matter how you slice it organizational sexism is just as wrong and repugnant as racism. There is zero rational or lodgical reason women are discriminated against by the mainstream."
Brad,
Is this the most valuable point you could muster for the conversation?
Freemasonry is not a right of anyone. It is a restrictive association. The standards for the association were decided long ago. While race is not a standard for association, sex is. It is that way simply because that is the way we want it. You can no more change this than I could change who you allow to enter your house.
"Perhaps the French are better Masons than we are?"
Howard,
Well I guess that would depend on what you consider to be better. Either way, your points are irrelevant to the discussion as none of us are in France.
Bro. Howard -
Better? Perhaps the French simply have different ideas of what Masonry ought to be. If it matches your own, you perceive that as "better." It it doesn't, you perceive that as "worse."
It ain't necessarily so. After all, doesn't the GOUSA espouse that the real question is "better for whom?"
Magus - I support the right of any organization to define its own parameters for membership. I do not consider my GL to be sexist; AF&AM Masonry is a men's organization, and most of us would prefer to keep it that way. For some individuals, it's probably sexism. But for others, it's because associating with like-minded men only is an experience which they don't get on a regular basis. In fact, some of the women Masons that I know prefer to remain in same-gender lodges. Mixed gender lodges are not for everybody, and I try to respect that.
Bro. Arthur -
You bring up a good point. Suppose the GOUSA - or pick any other order - decides to demonstrate publicly for a particular presidential candidate, or to publicly endorse some politically sensitive issue. That well could reflect on the 2 million other MS Masons who don't have a dog in that hunt. Furthermore, suppose they support some position in a way that becomes offensive or "politically incorrect" or even radical? What could MS Masons do?
I can't remember the details, but a few years back, some guy (possibly in NY state) was shooting at doctors who were associated with Planned Parenthood. When caught, he claimed to be doing it because of his religious beliefs. Local Christian groups were quick to step up and condemn his actions. Unfortunately, those people who belonged to the more fundamentalist Christian churches were tarred with that brush. I see the potential for something similar happening with our groups because the public knows even less about the Freemasons than they do about religions; if some Freemasons stepped up to condemn the actions, how would the public distinguish them?
I don't have an answer for this. I'm having a quiet giggle as I imagine myself trying to explain to some of my friends "Yes, a radical splinter group of Masons were the ones throwing pies at the convention last week. But don't worry, I'm not part of that group; I'm with the nice Masons."
:-\
Bro. Tom,
I get what you are saying, and I respect that. This is what I took issue with.
"They skew the public image of what Freemasonry is. The prfane know nothing about recognition and regularity. all they know is Freemasons and their symbols. So, if they see Freemasons publicly advocating the inclusion of women, using the craft for political agendas, admitting athiests, denouncing politicians, etc. they assume ALL Freemasons are that way. The truth is real Freemasonry condones none of this." Art Peterson
No this is hogwash. It is simply not true. Now, under Bro. Pertersons club, they do not accept women nor atheist Freemasons but please don't generalize to the point of this "real" Freemasons unicorn. Fact: Brother Petersons Grand Lodge has jurisdiction only over it's own membership. It holds zero authority over any other Masonic organization. What they happen to think about another organization carries zero weight and it means nothing. Making such wide sweeping statements as made by Bro. Peterson are designed to be degrading and hurtful. This, I have a problem with.
The women that I have had the pleasure to witness in a Masonic setting are Freemasons. The walk, talk, sit and stand like Freemasons. They have been without exception the best ritualists I have ever seen. I have learned much about the spiritual alchemy of Masonic ritual from Brethren that happen to be female.
Opinions may be one thing, but let us not dive into sensationalized non truths for shock values sake.
S&F,
BC
Bro. Tom,
I don't think you understand what I meant by "better".
In other words the French actually practice the Masonic ideal of Tolerance. They don't just talk about it in lodge, they actually walk the walk.
Why can't American Masons actually practice what they preach?
The present situation is similar to the Roman Catholic church telling the protestants they're evil sinners condemned to Hell.
The Masonic idea of Tolerance was to avoid this type of behavior and allow people to meet on the Level. Now, some Masons are doing just the opposite of what Freemasonry teaches.
So, when I say "better" it means that they have a better understanding and actually follow the teaching of Freemasonry.
In other words the French actually practice the Masonic ideal of Tolerance. They don't just talk about it in lodge, they actually walk the walk.
Why can't American Masons actually practice what they preach?
Bro. Howard, is your irony meter broken? ;-)
If you are talking about Tolerance with regard to individuals, once again, I think I have to remind you that my experience of Masonry must be vastly different from your own.
If you are talking about a GLs toleration of non-recognized jurisdictions, well, let's not forget that many of the European countries are not much bigger than some of our US states. We've developed a different culture, too, and that will affect how organizations perceive inter-relationships.
But things do change; witness the teeny, little step that the GL of Minn took a few years ago. Yes, it was rescinded, but at least it was an acknowledgment. I think that most of us would be unhappy if Masonry moved too quickly.
This is a funny planet that we live on. The facts of the matter is that the Grand Orient of the United States is a legitimate Masonic organization. It does not require recognition though we do have it in some sectors and not in others.
We are active and our lodges are working. Now what does this have to do with the cost of tea in China? Nothing.
We can't claim that we are not Masons. Sorry, that is just the way it is. We should be treated in much the same manner that ever other so-called "clandestine" Masonic organization has been treated in the past. Just ignore us. I promise, this is the best way to go about it. The other option is to talk to us politely. Just because we disagree, as Arthur and I do, does not mean that he and I cannot at least be civil.
Tolerance is a load of ****. It is an excuse to sit on a high horse. Acceptance is another matter entirely isn't it. The Grand Orient is not asking for recognition or tolerance. We are asking to be treated with some type of civil behavior. That is not too much to ask and it does not take acts of Congress to make it happen.
Arthur, you present me with an impossible situation. We can't claim that we are not Masons. We are indeed Masons. I will admit that we don't meet your Grand Lodge's view of what a Mason should be. Okay, I can live with that.
We still need to find a way to live in this world together because we are not going anywhere and neither is your Grand Lodge. I don't believe that we even have a lodge in your state's jurisdiction. So there are no worries right. We don't have to work together or even talk to each other though nothing has ever been solved by not talking about which is why I engage you in this discussion. There is a solution. There are points that neither one of us will budge. So be it and that is normal
There must be somewhere that we can agree. I believe that point is that neither of us wants to be confused with the other. There is nothing in me that wants to be confused with your Grand Lodge and I am certain that there is nothing in you that wants to be confused with the Grand Orient. That is where we can work together. How to do phrase it so that all profanes will know the difference upon a glance?
Brandt
"No this is hogwash. It is simply not true." - Brad Cofield
As much as it may pain you, it is true my friend. However, I can forgive your ignorance knowing that you never made it past the second degree in a regular lodge. You can not be expected to know what is truth and what is fiction about the fraternity. Therefore, I kindly request that you step back and hold your tongue. The adults are speaking.
Oh, and if you quote me, please you my full name. I go by "Art" to no one.
Howard,
The irony that Tom is pointing out is that you have no tolerance for my understanding of the matter. You will only be happy when all of us regular Masons bow down to your infinite wisdom.
Yes, Freemasonry does teach tolerance. However, no where does it teach that the extent of tolerance should be the dismissal of the obligations we have taken, immoral behavior, or forsaking God.
"Why can't American Masons actually practice what they preach?" - Howard
Most do and you know this. When others don't they are dealt with Masonically. Freemasonry, regular/recognised or irregular/clandestine, is not a perfect institution.
If perfect is what you are looking for, I am afraid you will soon be disappointed in your new found home as well.
Brandt,
I have a novel idea for you. Why worry about this. I cannot, will not, and would not call you a Mason. If and when you promote your organisation, all I do is come out and say it isn't Freemasonry. Then you say, oh but it is!
This has never interfered with us being sociable. This has never caused us to be uncivil.
Why change this?
You and I do not ever have to agree. I am doing what I think is right for my organisation. You are doing what you think is right for yours. In the end, it will be up to the public to read up and learn for themselves what is right for them. All I am doing is giving them reason to do that leg work.
So to be clear, why change anything in our relations?
Wouldn't it be better for you to teach your Masons to act like yourself and me to teach mine, then we can always disagree most pleasantly?
Arthur, that is indeed an awesome idea. We can well make sure of these matters. As long as things do not get personal or slanderous there is no reason for any to take offense. Just for your last post I owe you a beer. Whenever I am in your neighborhood I may twist your arm to fulfill that obligation.
If you would be so kind as to inform all that are interested that we are nothing like your Grand Lodge and I will do the same. We are working on different tracks and there is no reason for us to come together. We can have a beer though right?
I appreciate your candid discussion on this issue. I consider it quite refreshing.
Brandt
My friend, I turn down a beer for no one!
For those of you spectating, this is Masonic Tolerance.
"If you are talking about Tolerance with regard to individuals, once again, I think I have to remind you that my experience of Masonry must be vastly different from your own." - Tom
Bro. Tom,
No. I'm not talking about the Grand Lodges but about brothers like King and Peterson.
I suspect the Grand Lodges would like nothing better than to see all of this come to an end.
"I feel that we have reached a point where it is clear that reason cannot prevail."
Actually Howard, reason has prevailed for two of us on opposides of the debate. You just refuse to get on board the Reason Train!
Art,
Does it make you feel good to slide in an attempt to speak down to me as if I were a child? Perhaps you had some issue growing up that leaves you with rank issues? I don't know, not really my problem.
I'll tell you what, the day you become responsible for my bills and put food on my table is the day that you can speak to me as if I am a child. Until that day try to behave in the way your ritual has told you that you should. It shouldn't be so hard should it?
Also, to assume things about someone who you have never actually spoken too isn't really to bright either but hey, go right ahead. Whatever floats your boat.
S&F,
BC
I don't know about the "Reason Train" but I'm not opposed to that "Beer Train."
In the end, it will be up to the public to read up and learn for themselves what is right for them. All I am doing is giving them reason to do that leg work.
Bro. Arthur, if it makes you feel any better, I did that legwork before I joined, as did dozens of men whom I have since met. I suspect that most men who join will do so on the basis of what their friends and family recommend, which means Mainstream Freemasonry. Whether with will be good for the fraternity in the long run will only be shown by time.
Well, okay, maybe you're not feeling so well about me joining, but I assure you that a lot of good Masons are around up here in the Nutmeg state ;-)
Bro. Brandt, I think that you've made your point very clear, and without prejudice. There is always a Rolling Rock (The official beer of Friendship No. 33) waiting for you, should you stop by for fellowship. Unless we finished them. Then you'll have to take Sam Adams.
Bro. Howard -
I don't get this:
I feel that we have reached a point where it is clear that reason cannot prevail.
There are other solutions to this issue that will be more effective and far reaching.
If Masons cannot treat each other like Masons then perhaps there should be no more Masonry.
I don't know what you were looking at, but I've seen some people agree to disagree in a civil and peaceable fashion. Bros. Peterson and Brandt both stated their cases, and found very little common ground, and yet managed to do so without calling each other names, nor making baseless accusations about people who aren't even a part of this discussion.
Okay,so they don't agree with each other. They're not particularly irked by this. Are you upset because they did not agree with you?
There is no reason to explain myself regarding this because it will become all too clear in the near future.
Is this a threat?
You know, over the last week, I've had a lot of private conversations with brothers who in general wish the new GO the best of luck... but in specific don't understand why some of the members almost appear to be sabotaging what little progress they're making.
I don't know about the "Reason Train" but I'm not opposed to that "Beer Train."
All aboard, Bro. Bug!
I am all on board the "beer train" as well Bro.Bug. If you ever make it out west I will treat you to the best beer sold in America, HB Original in the litre as it should be. I will take you to my church:
http://www.schroederssf.com
You'll have a good time.
S&F,
BC
Bro. Tom,
I don’t make threats – I make predictions. Call me an “Astrologer”.
Several years ago I predicted that the Shrine and Jesters would get busted for their activities (prostitution, finance, etc.). It’s just now coming to pass. I was told how wrong I was about things.
I predicted that some of the Grand Lodges would get busted for embezzlement and fraud. Some of this has come to pass and more is in the future. They said I was an anti-Mason.
I predicted that there would be a new Patented Grand Orient of the USA. Brent Morris and Ed King said it would never happen. They were wrong.
Everyone is talking non-stop but never listening, and more importantly failing to ask the right questions. While Peterson, King and others are focused on “clandestine” lodges, the real danger is coming from within your own organization.
I just make predictions based on probabilities. The GO won’t destroy your Freemasonry. American Masonry will destroy itself by living in denial and refusing to do the one thing that may save it – looking within.
Call me unreasonable or what you will but that will not stop the future from unfolding.
as long as they continue to eat their own( rwb john whitehouse by the 22nd masonic district in the GLoO), I would not want to be a part of that......
rwb Bud Cygan is next to get chewed up and spit out by his own grand lodge... the treatment men receive for volunteering their time!?
keep up the good work fella's
from Plato's Cave for contemplation: "This entire allegory, I said, you may now append, dear Glaucon, to the previous argument; the prison-house is the world of sight, the light of the fire is the sun, and you will not misapprehend me if you interpret the journey upwards to be the ascent of the soul into the intellectual world according to my poor belief, which, at your desire, I have expressed whether rightly or wrongly God knows. But, whether true or false, my opinion is that in the world of knowledge the idea of good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world, and the immediate source of reason and truth in the intellectual; and that this is the power upon which he who would act rationally, either in public or private life must have his eye fixed."
American Masonry will destroy itself by living in denial and refusing to do the one thing that may save it – looking within.
Whew! Looks like you got out just in time, then, huh?
:-\
Personally, I see these incidents as part of the normal "punctuated equilibrium" environment of any organization, and that MS Masonry will be all the better off for it. The internet, I believe, will be a very positive force for change because Masons will be able to get a better idea that what happens in their jurisdiction - or district - is not the same as what goes on elsewhere.
....just a nick in the can as far as I am concerned. Nothing to worry about.
Brandt
Tom, this is an excellent post. I appreciate this more than you can know. Frankly, I sometimes get frustrated by the institutional shallowness of the fraternity, in the sense that we never, ever, discuss anything in depth. Sorry about the connotations of the word 'shallowness', but nothing else fits.
Now, I understand that tolerance can be a virtue, but there is also a value to the contemplation of our allegories' true meanings. Without a forum for discussion, it will never happen.
As has often been mentioned, early Masons - of all stripe - often met in pubs. It is my belief they did this because it gave them a forum.
This blog, whether by design or luck, is indeed a forum on the internet, and for that I sincerely offer my thanks, Tom.
Brother Tom,
You do know that Howard is JP right? I think the name thing is just strange. Geez JP, the guy gave you a nice compliment. Stop arguing with him under one of many assumed identities. Weird.
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